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Hanamonogatari 01v2

So, there has been a lot of controversy over our Hanamonogatari 01 release. fnord at Nyaa removed our trusted status, saying the following:

I’ve removed trusted status for this release due to massive and unacceptable mistakes in the translation.

The problem is that fnord is the TL for Commie’s release. He is a good TL but there was a possibility of bias. This comparison of the first couple of lines was linked by herkz on twitter: PrivatePaste. You can see for yourself there are differences.

So, it was an accusation that we had to take seriously. But given fnord’s bias of working on the show himself, we wanted and needed to get some additional TLC help in to see what all the drama was about.

We’ve now finished the process of re-TLCing (thanks to kokujin-kun for hopping on board to TLC the rest of the show with us as well as conducting this internal review) and re-editing to accommodate those changes.

Our conclusion is this: there were TL errors. Several of them. Especially in the first 4 minutes before the opening, which according to the same tweet from herkz (link) is all that was reviewed by futsuu. However, none of them was earth-shatteringly bad. None of them seemed to affect the outcome of the plot. And, from the sole piece of evidence provided in herkz’ privatepaste, the most evident difference is that of the tone of Suruga’s mother toward her, which was intentional, and some editing differences. While we have softened the tone somewhat, and made changes elsewhere, you will NOT get a different viewing experience if you watched the v1. If anything, you might say this version is simply a bit more literal than the last.

As to whether or not fnord’s decision to remove our trusted status was justified by truly “massive and unacceptable mistakes,” I do not know. I am not a TL. Perhaps some of our translations were a disgusting abuse of the language to those with the understanding of it, but I don’t believe it was nearly that bad. From the perspective of “What will I get from the release?”, it is our position that you will get the same in the v1 as the v2 as the core of it has not changed. Commie may release and have a holistically alternative interpretation of the tone of the show and make different translation decisions than us but, in my personal opinion, that does not disqualify our release.

Episode 02 will be out within 24 hours. Probably less. (I know i said this but some IRL stuff came up for me. so it’s a bit delayed.)

Edit: I had incorrectly stated that herkz deleted his tweet. It was just twitter’s web interface being stupid which also prevented me from seeing that it indicated futsuu. Sorry herkz.

Edit2: we’ve gotten a chance to talk to fnord and we’ve come to an understanding on the lines in question. It was my fault for not waiting for TLC on this. Please go back to your boring, drama free lives.

Edit3: comments disabled. I’m tired of my phone going off every 10 minutes. if you’re gonna stick with DDY subs, great, if not, sad to see you go. If you have a problem with our translations and you think you can do better, apply; we’re doing the best we can with the people we have.

98 comments to Hanamonogatari 01v2

  • You can also understand the basic plot by watching the show raw. What’s your point?

    • i’m sorry, there is no way you could understand anything about the plot of this series based on the video and audio alone. For a non-japanese speaking person, this is simply impossible. And more than basic plot was correct.

      But to address your comment, I’m saying we fixed the TL mistakes that were there and that I believe that even with them, and even more so now, we are presenting a good and valid representation of this series.

      • Uh, yeah you can. [MOD REMOVED FOR SPOILERS]

        Very difficult stuff indeed.

        This is like saying the Baka-Tsuki translations are acceptable because they get this same point across.

        • anon

          So what you’re saying is either if it’s not a 1:1 translation it’s wrong?

          • I’m saying defending the v1 is dumb

            • I’m defending our approach to the v1. Our decisions on tone and direction are still the same.

        • 1. There is no way you could understand that. There is also no way you would know any of that. Only that people appear on screen and talk about things unrelated to the video.

          2. Don’t spoil unreleased episodes.

        • mondaynites

          Monogatari is one of the most wordy and dialogue heavy shows out there. And you’re telling me that you can understand the plot by just watching the raws. When 70% of the screen time is just them walking around, talking, and sitting still. What a joke.

          • Yeah, you can get the plot. Easily. The plot ain’t complicated.

            However, the enjoyment from watching *monogatari hardly comes from the plot. Getting the plot is your least concern if you want to truly love what you see. Actually, the plot is practically irrelevant in that aspect for me.

            That’s where a good translation comes in handy.

    • rude

      That would be somewhat true if one has studied or knows the language but untrue so very much for those who have no knowledge of it. That’s pretty much stretching it with your comment. Especially for a show like the monogatari series.

  • Commie #1 HATER b'coz they are the BIGGEST FAGGOTS

    Yareyare… DDY group, you should just ignore the hates and biases. Cause whatever they say, you’re the better group :-D

    P.S

    They can’t even though decent karaoke so you win XD

    • Hating commie because they are all faggots is a bigot move.

      >They can’t even though decent karaoke so you win XD
      I assume you mean commie, it isn’t that they cannot do karaoke, it is that as a Subgroup rule, you cannot do karaoke. They are a localization heavy group. Different tastes for different people. Right now the big subgroups are more biased that way, it may change, it may not.

  • Dice-kun

    I actually really liked the tone you gave her mother. Guess I’ll keep the old one.

    • honestly, it’s mostly the same in terms of tone. just… slightly… watered down.

  • Exo

    Fnord is clearly being butthurt over your release.
    They did something similar to Coalgirls’ monogatari BDs before now, so coalgirls hosts the torrents on their own tracker.

  • Anon

    >You can also understand the basic plot by watching the show raw. What’s your point
    Commie pls

  • Dice-kun

    Also just noticed they deleted more than half the comments over on Nyaa for the old release. Herkz most of not liked when I pointed out his group failure.

    • rude

      Their editors are the sole reason why their releases are not worth the time. Unless there are no other alternatives. What I hear and understand is not what the subs show, you know there’s something very wrong.

      • What’s funny is that most of what Commie does is Crunchyroll edits; yet typically the Crunchyroll script is better before they get their hands on it. The only they they’re good for is typesets sometimes; but you can take them and apply to HorribleSubs release and have yourself a better product. Especially in the case of Log Horizon where their edits altered the actual meaning of lines; which is far worse than anything in this release of DDY’s which Commie is hating on.

        What it really boils down to is they’re pissed off that DDY is getting downloads for a show they want to try and be exclusive for. They kicked CoalGirls off for Monogatari as well.

        • Slibindoo

          Yeah. That kind of nails it, really. I don’t watch Commie anymore because:

          A) They’re fucking pricks.
          B) They translate shit straight up wrong ON PURPOSE and then call it ‘localization’ or ‘style’.
          C) Shit like the present situation, where DDY is still the only group to have delivered jack shit and Commie feels like they have the right to comment.
          D) They’re fucking pricks.

    • Imagnos

      I noticed that too. Fnord is a butthurt weeabo who abused his mod powers.

  • Mafin

    Keep up the good work, guys. Antisocial behavior like the one Commie is showing right now is the reason we can’t have nice things. Don’t let it get to you and just try to do your best. Your attitude already is miles better than Commie’s anyway.

  • Tom

    Yeah…kind of a dick move by that person to pretty much call you out on your translations. Oh well, you’re always going to run into people like that in the world who can’t handle the competition, so they jump onto any form of “mistake” you may make. Either way, keep up the great work and don’t let this shit worry you.

  • tfw

    You know, it’s funny. When your release first came out, I jokingly asked Xythar if DDY was going to lose their trusted status over you releasing before Commie (http://ask.fm/Xythar it’s like the fourth latest answer). I knew this would happen — it’s so typical of Commie. Kristen is 100% correct when she says there is a cartel on Nyaa. This is not about translation errors, it is purely because you released this before Commie did. That’s it. Fnord was so frustrated by it he went with “translation sucked” so that it was much harder for the average leecher to dispute.

    Really fucking sad.

    • It’s about time the non-cartel members did something about it, lol.

  • anon

    http://a.pomf.se/csddug.png
    HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

    • Exo

      Oh wow, dat anal pain

    • Knew it was only a matter of time. fnord and the rest of Nyaa can’t handle the responsibility of running a tracker. So butthurt that DDY beat them on their “exclusive” series. The same way CG’s did on this show.

    • tfw

      Jesus Christ, Nyaa’s mods are like a bunch of fucking children.

  • Plantz

    fnord’s just mad because you release yours first which drew attention away from his shit group.

  • They locked the comments in the torrent lol
    I’ll stick with the first version for this episode, but thanks anyway~

  • tfw

    This is like fansubbing circa 06. “Baaaaaaw, we were doing this release, stop stealing our downloads!”

  • anon

    Xythar is now threatening to remove DDY trusted status as a whole.

    • tfw

      Xythar is a cocksuckers — what a shock.

    • What do you expect from Cartel members?

  • kuronekochan

    and now I wonder if they’ll shut the comment and remove the trusted status for the second eps.

  • NamelessFearless

    Having dealt with nyaa before, I’m not really surprised by this and I actually use some custom css with nyaa to remove the colours from trusted and A+ torrents, because they’re totally meaningless labels (much like bakabt only accepting “the best releases”). IMO it’s just best to ignore the whole thing and let people choose themselves which releases they download — some will get misled by thinking that the trusted status or A+ means something, but that’s unfortunately just how it is.

    The core people at nyaa are not total jerks (they’re actually nice people when they happen to be in the mood) and I’m happy that they keep the tracker running, but some of them (okay, most of them) take themselves way too seriously and they have way too high opinions of themselves, and they just can’t admit it when they make mistakes. Some groups get A+ status for their releases pretty much immediately, even when the actual release hasn’t been reviewed by anyone, ‘cos obviously big groups like Commie or FFF never make mistakes, right? (And later when it turns out that they gave A+ status to a completely broken release (missing fonts, broken encode, etc.), it’s just a “human error”. Or when there’s some other, better release, they “don’t have time to review every release”.)

    The whole thing about “massive and unacceptable mistakes in the translation” is just utter nonsense. Most anime is rife with minor translation errors and occasional bigger mistakes (and, no, Commie is definitely not excluded from that), which is only natural considering how fundamentally different language Japanese is from English or pretty much any Western language, and seeing that most serious fansub groups still produce better subtitles than CR or Funi (who actually do this commercially), I wouldn’t consider that much of an issue or demerit.

    Were there translation errors in this release? Well, naturally, but point me to a single release with as much dialogue as this that doesn’t have any errors — in my experience you’re not going to find such a thing. Any translation errors that have been pointed out so far have been minor and they haven’t detracted from the plot in any way, and calling them “massive and unacceptable” is just being intellectually dishonest (and considering that there’s a clear conflict of interest here, the whole thing is full of dishonesty).

    Anyway, I’ve rambled for long enough. Thanks for the release and try not to let the nyaa staff get to you too much. Unfortunately you can’t avoid running into them at their worse moments like this if you use nyaa long enough, but you can treat it as a life lesson, if you will: keep putting out the best releases you can and try not to grow a big head if you get “to the top” (unlike certain people… ;)

  • Rewston

    Don’t worry DDY, I will always go with your release over Commies any day, and I am guessing allot of people are doing the same. We just don’t want Commies BS of releases. Can’t even do decent karaoke anymore. Seems to me that they care more about quantity over quality these day, which is their loss.

  • man00ver

    Hey, it’s an excuse for my first rewatch of the new series! Thanks!!

  • Anon

    >None of them seemed to affect the outcome of the plot

    I understand the plot perfectly when I watch DameDame’s mp5 releases too.

  • indifferent

    Check the very first thread on /a/ about your release, people were very quick to point out obvious spelling errors, bad sentence structure and everything wrong with the release. Yeah, the cartel is real and that’s why nyaa is shit, using tokyotosho is a way better option, but the fact that your v1 was a very, very poor job by your quality checkers remains. Why do you even have 5 people quality checking when they can’t do their job properly? /a/nons bashed your release ever since it came out for poor quality, yet your QC department wasn’t able to find any mistakes with it?

  • The attitude taken in this post isn’t the way to handle this, I’m just saying. They were well within their rights to do what they did, especially after seeing the review material. At the end of the day, you picked a sub-optimal TL and chose not to have him TLCed. This was self-inflicted pain. Anyone who disagrees that this was a bad call to make has no idea how to measure the capabilities of a team’s abilities.

    • tfw

      Why did you go and join the cartel? ;_;

      • Last I checked, I didn’t. This isn’t about Cartel or Non-Cartel here. I solely made this post to say that this project has been mis-handled. I don’t need to be Cartel to do that, I just need to know what I’m talking about. I gave DDY warnings that this kind of mistake could have happened without a TLC, and lo and behold, it did.

        • tfw

          Yeah, well, you god blue, so…

          In all seriousness, though, I do agree with what you’re saying. Unfortunately, if you’re using Nyaa you just need to deal with the decisions they make. If you don’t want it to happen, put out better releases – don’t give them the opportunity to do what they’ve done.

          • DDY has blue too. DameDesuCartel incoming. ( ゚‿ ゚)

        • archdeco

          Blue on two shows automatically makes your group belong to cartel and your opinions are from now biased to hell and back. Enjoy. (  ゚‿ ゚)

          • Oh yeah, I forgot that was a thing. Sorry guys, must be cartel now. ( ゚‿ ゚)

    • I think my attitude is perfectly acceptable. I admitted there were issues but that it did not destroy the viewing experience. I even said I am not qualified to say whether or not fnord was justified in his decision. I’m not quite sure what else I am supposed to say. That we are the new hadena and everyone should wait for Commie? That is a gross exaggeration of the situation, for sure, nor do I believe it to be true or for the v1, even, of being evidence of that.

      • Necrosaro

        SRS question time.

        I watched the V1 of your release and understood everything perfectly fine, other than one sounding a bit more… malicious, lets say, than the other there wasn’t any real loss of meaning. If there were other things (typos/grammar/etc) I sure didn’t notice them. Apparently though it was bad enough for you to lose “trusted status” on nyaa… but what does that really MEAN?

        If i’ve watched a show a group has subbed, and i liked it, i’ll keep tabs on the shows that group is doing, and tend towards downloading their version, even if it’s something i’m already planing on streaming on CR/Daisuki/Hulu. And generally sub groups have their own pages that regularly update with direct links to their torrent files or DDLs. I’ve never once actually USED Nyaa to search for a show myself, and i have to assume most other people will get their links the same way, directly from the source, so how does no longer being listed as “trusted” actually impact you guys other than what appears to be a fluff title? I’m genuinely interested.

        Also, keep up the great work, you guys are fast becoming one of my favorite groups, and FWIW when they coincide, i choose your releases over commie every time.

  • omimon

    Why did you guys change medicine to antidote? You guys had it right at first.

    • mugi

      this

    • to better suit the new context.

      • mugi

        There’s no real difference, but antidote is more of a cure for a poison. Medicine implies more of a general remedy or good, which is what the line implies. Like, do either good or evil but don’t be useless.
        Antidote sounds more like, be an answer to the evil instead of do good in general.

        • Honestly I agree, but we generally went with what the TLC thought would be best in the first 4 minutes.

  • I’m gonna remember to bring some popcorn to your future releases, this is going to get interesting.

  • shirto

    It’s not ironic at all that most of the local defence squad can’t do English properly, never mind what the Japanese is anyway.

  • kindra2004

    fanubs are serious business, i guess

  • Laxx

    And this is how you treat things professionally.
    Give respect and earn respect, it’s that simple actually.

    • Slibindoo

      No. That’s how small children and men with small penises operate. Adults don’t abuse authority, even when they feel butthurt.

  • I’ll be writing an in-depth post on all the changes from the v1 and v2 sometimes soon. It’ll sort of be like a big TL/Editor’s Note.

  • quidoo

    Thanks. Keep it up, DDY.
    Commie eternally a shit.

  • polynazn

    Seems to me that all this drama is a translation vs interpretation argument.

    Stick to one and don’t look back.

    (・‿ .)

    I prefer commie’s interpretations sometimes.

  • >Especially in the first 4 minutes before the opening, which according to the same tweet from herkz (which has since been deleted) is all that was reviewed by fnord.

    Fuck you. I never deleted any tweet.

  • silver

    I don’t really care for all this drama, but I thought you’d appreciate some support. I didn’t know DDY existed prior to yesterday when I downloaded your release. I didn’t find anything even remotely objectionable as far as translations go so I subbed to your RSS feed for the future.

    There was a thread on /a/ yesterday with someone posting a screencap from one of the scene cards and asking if DDY had an accurate translation. It wasn’t even questionable and most of the replies said as much. I think it might have been Commie trying to stir shit up to get the community agitated at your releases, which is disgusting considering the shenanigans seen in their own releases.

  • blank

    commie look like a child,the thing they do it’s a foolish
    in this pic http://privatepaste.com/d78057845d i watch your sub is batter than their sub
    i will wait you until you completed it and watch the all ep’s with each other.
    thx you for your sub <3

    • The problem there is that DDY is changing the meaning of each of the lines. Which, for a show like *gatari, which relies so heavily on low-level detail in its script, isn’t acceptable.

  • monogatari fan

    Thanks for your hard work! I speak zero Japanese, hence am not in any position to judge the quality of your subs. But, as you mentioned, the main plot was not really affected by these ‘mistakes’. Take your time and don’t let this bs get to you :)

  • acorea

    I liked your first release and comparing the differences http://privatepaste.com/d78057845d I found your wording to be much more fluid to read.
    I know that especially with Monogatari a lot of people are very anal about the ‘right’ translation as the dialogue is the main point of the series, but I don’t see any meaning of the big picture lost in comparison (between the two English versions as well as the Japanese), it’s a shame some people dramatize so much…

    I’m looking forward to the other episodes <3

  • What you should be getting out of this release post is: “Mistakes were found and fixed, and now DDY is releasing a v2. Please enjoy.” Please stop spouting Nyaa conspiracies and shit like fnord/herkz is a dumbass because that is not how DDY sees the situation.

  • Hamartia

    Commie’s original translations are typically very good. It’s when they edit CR that you have to worry. Even then, the CR editing isn’t all that bad. Sure, they memeify stuff, but they also make the dialogue vastly less cumbersome. CR’s translators are typically awful at getting an idea across poignantly or making decent dialogue.

    People always whine about the fanservice and haremy feel to monogatari, but it really does have many deeper meanings. Suruga’s relationship with her mother has quite a bit of impact on her character, arc, and the monogatari story. The mistake in tone that was made with v1 presents the relationship very differently from how it was supposed to be. A viewer’s first impression is going to be impacted.

    Now, I’m not going to dick commie’s dick and say they made the right call. Discussing the mistranslations in the comments would’ve been good enough. Removing trusted just shows that they’re buttmad about you releasing first. However, a good monogatari release doesn’t just get the plot across. There were errors with the tone in your release that weren’t minor in addition to several editing errors.

    Either way, thanks. The v2 is a better release.

  • Better dead than red

    Get rekt commie.

  • Black Shads

    Whoa. Someone call Greenpeace.

  • Lol shit, Commie releases all in one file, disables torrent flagging and comments and gets A+ and 100+ fans in an hour.

    *chews popcorn*

  • NecDW4

    Commie acting like shitbags over something little? NooooooOoOoooOoO….

  • misao

    commie? oh that eoten group hahahaha. eoten group seriously want to say something about translation? a la eoten lol

  • “Hanamonogatari is considered an OVA/movie, and groups that received A+ for the TV airing were always given A+ for OVAs by default. This is done for consistency and ease of administration. ”

    nyaa making up the rules as he goes along as usual!

    • RedHawk02

      Also that it’s listed as a TV Series on pretty much every site I checked: MAL, AniDB, Hummingbird, Neregate, ANN, etc.

  • ~

    Fucking commie, being assholes for the sake of being assholes.

    Either way keep on trucking DDY, I’ll always be cheering for you guys.

  • pelfmiester

    I haven’t watched the release yet, but it seems unusual for a group to lose trusted status because one release was poor. Every group has bad releases for one reason or another (substitute TLs / missing editor or QC for an ep). Also I find it ironic Commie’s release got A+ status as soon as it was released before anyone could have possibly had time to review it.

  • the people in commie don’t have life (just like me, lel) and they take anime releases seriously (lel).

  • mugi

    I checked commie’s release and it full of their usual liberal shit. If they can complain about DDY then how is acceptable? Anyway, v1 and v2 are actually better then most of commie’s but some parts of commies are a tad better. But their subs are subs are such hit and miss that it’s a real mood killer. Also no indication of whether they understand the material better than DDY. I’m not really and expert but commie is kind of a fail, while DDY is acceptable.

  • Well, after watching both, I’ll chime in. TL:DR. I’ll support DDY the rest of the way. Reasons? I’ll support the people that try and maybe even fail, cause that’s cool. Commie did a good job with some of their basic WTFs largely intact, but the entire “dropped trusted” shit leave a bad taste in my mouth. I thank them for the whole release, but not for the very obvious bias they pulled on nyaa.

  • Twikite

    I’ll be frank: I prefer your release to Commie’s. The read is much smoother, and I appreciate dialog that isn’t stilted (read: overly literal). I really hope you continue to release more, and thanks for all you’ve done thus far.

  • nissannut

    Wait… a fansubbing group that has been called out for their translation and editing shenanigans is calling out another group for their honest translating and editing mistakes? Talk about the pot calling the kettle…

    Also, DDY’s trusted status on nyaa was removed by a mod who also happens to work for a fansubbing group that is subbing the same series. Conflict of interest, no?

    In the end, both groups should just try to do the best job they can, make constructive criticism, consider that criticism, and go about their business. But who am I kidding? Everywhere you go, people get jealous or butthurt… even about the dumbest, most trivial things for spiteful reasons. The world is populated by immature asshats; has been and will always be.

    Anyway, just give it your best like you always do. I’ll support you 100% as long as you’re as thoughtful and understanding as you’ve shown in post defending the two releases.

    tl;dr
    Pot (Commie) calling the kettle (DDY); conflict of interest and asshat (fnord); handling this with class (begna112); supporting DDY so long as they continue being thoughtful and understanding

  • Anon

    Now where’s the fair treatment towards Commie version from said tweeter? Will you be posting any other translation mistakes others pick up for DDY and especially for Commie since they are known for MANY (more then DDY has ever done) from now on Anon? I highly doubt that’s why you posted your comment in the first place now is it?

  • Laxx

    The root here obviously lies much deeper than this translation.
    Everywhere you read “bias” here “bias” there, and indeed it is bias, but you can’t even blame the people for that. The problem is and always has been that fucked up Commie attitude, where not even the authorities/mods can act accordingly. Instead of acting all high and mighty, you should be an example in such a position.

    That said, if you act like you act, you shouldn’t whine yourself if all these butthurt is blowing up in your faces afterwards. Also by making sarcastic statements you suuure look mature and superior. Nonetheless, given the facts I personally have no problem admitting whose position is in the right here, even though wrong communicated.

    Everybody should look who’s talking, on the one side by accepting that there definitely are grave mistakes here, and the others, well … I guess it’s not possible to fix an irreparable character. They can just keep being self-defeating if it’s that fun, each to their own.

  • Anonymous

    >deleting comments

    You’re doing it all wrong DameDesuYo, you still have a lot to learn.

    • Really i’m just trying to turn them off. Can’t seem to figure out how to do it

      • Black Shads

        Can’t you still manually allow them through wordpress?

        • I can. But i’m just trying to stop all the nonsense on both sides. Seems my theme is preventing me from disabling all comments.